Hi, I have an area of significance on the mesial surface of the hemisphere (please see attached tiffs). I would like to know if it is exclusively in the cingulate or in cingulate and SFG. The prolbem is that the two atlases don't agree. The upper more than half of this significant area is in SFG according to lh.aparc.annot and in cingulate gyrus and sulcus according to lh.aparc.a2005s.annot.
I know there have been some issues before with cingulate and SFG in the Destrieux atals ( http://www.mail-archive.com/freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/msg05399.html) but it's unlcear to me whether these have been resolved. As you can see from the tiffs, in lh.aparc.annot the significant area is inside the corpus callosum (a small part), caudal and rostral ant. cingulate, and SFG. In lh.aparc.a2005s.annot it is inside pericallosal sulcus, g. cingulate main part, s. cingulate main part, and only a very small part of it extends into SFG. These are substantially different interpretations. Is one atlas more accurate in this region?
Thank you!
Hi Lars,
you need to send images of the folding patterns for Christophe and Rahul to decide.
cheers, Bruce On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, Lars M. Rimol wrote:
Hi, I have an area of significance on the mesial surface of the hemisphere (please see attached tiffs). I would like to know if it is exclusively in the cingulate or in cingulate and SFG. The prolbem is that the two atlases don't agree. The upper more than half of this significant area is in SFG according to lh.aparc.annot and in cingulate gyrus and sulcus according to lh.aparc.a2005s.annot.
I know there have been some issues before with cingulate and SFG in the Destrieux atals ( http://www.mail-archive.com/freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/msg05399.html) but it's unlcear to me whether these have been resolved. As you can see from the tiffs, in lh.aparc.annot the significant area is inside the corpus callosum (a small part), caudal and rostral ant. cingulate, and SFG. In lh.aparc.a2005s.annot it is inside pericallosal sulcus, g. cingulate main part, s. cingulate main part, and only a very small part of it extends into SFG. These are substantially different interpretations. Is one atlas more accurate in this region?
Thank you!
Hi,
I just mapped these on the fsaverage lh.inflated. By images of the folding patterns, do you mean pial or smoothwm images from fsaverage? Or do you mean data from single subjects?
LMR
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:01:31 -0400 From: fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu To: larilin@gmail.com CC: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu; destrieux@med.univ-tours.fr; rahul@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] Destrieux or Desikan/Ron Killiany
Hi Lars,
you need to send images of the folding patterns for Christophe and Rahul to decide.
cheers, Bruce On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, Lars M. Rimol wrote:
Hi, I have an area of significance on the mesial surface of the hemisphere (please see attached tiffs). I would like to know if it is exclusively in the cingulate or in cingulate and SFG. The prolbem is that the two atlases don't agree. The upper more than half of this significant area is in SFG according to lh.aparc.annot and in cingulate gyrus and sulcus according to lh.aparc.a2005s.annot.
I know there have been some issues before with cingulate and SFG in the Destrieux atals ( http://www.mail-archive.com/freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/msg05399.html) but it's unlcear to me whether these have been resolved. As you can see from the tiffs, in lh.aparc.annot the significant area is inside the corpus callosum (a small part), caudal and rostral ant. cingulate, and SFG. In lh.aparc.a2005s.annot it is inside pericallosal sulcus, g. cingulate main part, s. cingulate main part, and only a very small part of it extends into SFG. These are substantially different interpretations. Is one atlas more accurate in this region?
Thank you!
any would help, or show the curvature in the background On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, Lars M. Rimol wrote:
Hi,
I just mapped these on the fsaverage lh.inflated. By images of the folding patterns, do you mean pial or smoothwm images from fsaverage? Or do you mean data from single subjects?
LMR
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:01:31 -0400 From: fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu To: larilin@gmail.com CC: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu; destrieux@med.univ-tours.fr; rahul@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] Destrieux or Desikan/Ron Killiany
Hi Lars,
you need to send images of the folding patterns for Christophe and Rahul to decide.
cheers, Bruce On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, Lars M. Rimol wrote:
Hi, I have an area of significance on the mesial surface of the hemisphere (please see attached tiffs). I would like to know if it is exclusively in the cingulate or in cingulate and SFG. The prolbem is that the two atlases don't agree. The upper more than half of this significant area is in SFG according to lh.aparc.annot and in cingulate gyrus and sulcus according to lh.aparc.a2005s.annot.
I know there have been some issues before with cingulate and SFG in the Destrieux atals ( http://www.mail-archive.com/freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/msg05399.html) but it's unlcear to me whether these have been resolved. As you can see from the tiffs, in lh.aparc.annot the significant area is inside the corpus callosum (a small part), caudal and rostral ant. cingulate, and SFG. In lh.aparc.a2005s.annot it is inside pericallosal sulcus, g. cingulate main part, s. cingulate main part, and only a very small part of it extends into SFG. These are substantially different interpretations. Is one atlas more accurate in this region?
Thank you!
Hi Lars
There is no atlas more accurate than the other one ; they just differ in anatomical convention.
In fact the difference between the 2 nomenclatures comes from the definition of the parcellation: - Rahul used a gyral based atlas : ie a gyrus was defined as running between the bottoms of 2 adjacent sulci.
- I used a different parcellation that first divided the cortex in gyral and sulcal, the limit between both being given by the curvature value of the surface. This technique provides a more complex parcellation, since sulcal labels were added to gyral ones
In other words:
* In my atlas, a gyrus only includes the cortex visible on the pial view, the hidden cortex (banks of sulci) are marked sulcus * in Rahul's: a gyrus includes the part visible on the pial view + adjacent banks of the sulci limiting this gyrus
Your ROI mainly belongs to the cingulate sulcus, cingulate gyrus and pericallosal sulcus in my atlas. In Rahul's, since sulcal labels are "included" in gyri:
* the superior bank of cingulate sulcus is transfered to superior frontal gyrus, and its inferior bank is transfered to the cingulate gyrus * similarly, the inferior bank of pericallosal sulcus is transfered to corpus callosum and its superior one is transfered to the cingulate gyrus
I hope that my explanations are clear enough ;
PS a new version of my atlas should be available soon with subdivision of the cingulate sulcus and gyrus according to the one proposed by voogt and al
cheers
Hi, I just mapped these on the fsaverage lh.inflated. By images of the folding patterns, do you mean pial or smoothwm images from fsaverage? Or do you mean data from single subjects?
LMR
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:01:31 -0400 From: fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu To: larilin@gmail.com CC: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu; destrieux@med.univ-tours.fr;
rahul@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] Destrieux or Desikan/Ron Killiany
Hi Lars,
you need to send images of the folding patterns for Christophe and
Rahul
to decide.
cheers, Bruce On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, Lars M. Rimol wrote:
Hi, I have an area of significance on the mesial surface of the hemisphere (please see attached tiffs). I would like to know if it is
exclusively in
the cingulate or in cingulate and SFG. The prolbem is that the two
atlases
don't agree. The upper more than half of this significant area is
in SFG
according to lh.aparc.annot and in cingulate gyrus and sulcus
according to
lh.aparc.a2005s.annot.
I know there have been some issues before with cingulate and SFG
in the
Destrieux atals (
http://www.mail-archive.com/freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/msg05399.html)
but it's unlcear to me whether these have been resolved. As you
can see from
the tiffs, in lh.aparc.annot the significant area is inside the corpus callosum (a small part), caudal and rostral ant. cingulate, and
SFG. In
lh.aparc.a2005s.annot it is inside pericallosal sulcus, g.
cingulate main
part, s. cingulate main part, and only a very small part of it
extends into
SFG. These are substantially different interpretations. Is one atlas more accurate in this region?
Thank you!
Hi Christophe, That was very clear. Thank you very much!
yours, LMR
(PS! I have attached two images with curvature as Bruce suggested, in case anyone wants to check, but I think your e-mail has explained the discrepancy.)
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Christophe Destrieux < destrieux@med.univ-tours.fr> wrote:
Hi Lars
There is no atlas more accurate than the other one ; they just differ in anatomical convention.
In fact the difference between the 2 nomenclatures comes from the definition of the parcellation:
- Rahul used a gyral based atlas : ie a gyrus was defined as running
between the bottoms of 2 adjacent sulci.
- I used a different parcellation that first divided the cortex in gyral
and sulcal, the limit between both being given by the curvature value of the surface. This technique provides a more complex parcellation, since sulcal labels were added to gyral ones
In other words:
- In my atlas, a gyrus only includes the cortex visible on the pial view, the hidden cortex (banks of sulci) are marked sulcus
- in Rahul's: a gyrus includes the part visible on the pial view + adjacent banks of the sulci limiting this gyrus
Your ROI mainly belongs to the cingulate sulcus, cingulate gyrus and pericallosal sulcus in my atlas. In Rahul's, since sulcal labels are "included" in gyri:
- the superior bank of cingulate sulcus is transfered to superior frontal gyrus, and its inferior bank is transfered to the cingulate
gyrus
- similarly, the inferior bank of pericallosal sulcus is transfered to corpus callosum and its superior one is transfered to the cingulate gyrus
I hope that my explanations are clear enough ;
PS a new version of my atlas should be available soon with subdivision of the cingulate sulcus and gyrus according to the one proposed by voogt and al
cheers
Hi,
I just mapped these on the fsaverage lh.inflated. By images of the folding patterns, do you mean pial or smoothwm images from fsaverage? Or do you mean data from single subjects?
LMR
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:01:31 -0400 From: fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu To: larilin@gmail.com CC: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu; destrieux@med.univ-tours.fr;
rahul@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] Destrieux or Desikan/Ron Killiany
Hi Lars,
you need to send images of the folding patterns for Christophe and Rahul to decide.
cheers, Bruce On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, Lars M. Rimol wrote:
Hi, I have an area of significance on the mesial surface of the hemisphere (please see attached tiffs). I would like to know if it is exclusively
in
the cingulate or in cingulate and SFG. The prolbem is that the two
atlases
don't agree. The upper more than half of this significant area is in
SFG
according to lh.aparc.annot and in cingulate gyrus and sulcus
according to
lh.aparc.a2005s.annot.
I know there have been some issues before with cingulate and SFG in
the
Destrieux atals (
http://www.mail-archive.com/freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/msg05399.html)
but it's unlcear to me whether these have been resolved. As you can
see from
the tiffs, in lh.aparc.annot the significant area is inside the corpus callosum (a small part), caudal and rostral ant. cingulate, and SFG.
In
lh.aparc.a2005s.annot it is inside pericallosal sulcus, g. cingulate
main
part, s. cingulate main part, and only a very small part of it extends
into
SFG. These are substantially different interpretations. Is one atlas more accurate in this region?
Thank you!
-- Christophe Destrieux Laboratoire d'Anatomie - Faculté de Médecine - 10 Bd Tonnellé 37032 Tours - France tel (33) 2 47 36 61 36 - fax (33) 2 47 36 62 07
Hi Lars,
From looking at the images you sent, your area of interest is clearly in
the anterior portion of the cingulate gyrus as well as in the medial portion of the superior frontal gyrus (as well as a small portion in the corpus callosum). I think both atlases agree on this quite consistently.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Rahul
-- Rahul S. Desikan rahul@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
Hi, I have an area of significance on the mesial surface of the hemisphere (please see attached tiffs). I would like to know if it is exclusively in the cingulate or in cingulate and SFG. The prolbem is that the two atlases don't agree. The upper more than half of this significant area is in SFG according to lh.aparc.annot and in cingulate gyrus and sulcus according to lh.aparc.a2005s.annot.
I know there have been some issues before with cingulate and SFG in the Destrieux atals ( http://www.mail-archive.com/freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/msg05399.html) but it's unlcear to me whether these have been resolved. As you can see from the tiffs, in lh.aparc.annot the significant area is inside the corpus callosum (a small part), caudal and rostral ant. cingulate, and SFG. In lh.aparc.a2005s.annot it is inside pericallosal sulcus, g. cingulate main part, s. cingulate main part, and only a very small part of it extends into SFG. These are substantially different interpretations. Is one atlas more accurate in this region?
Thank you!
-- yours, LMR _______________________________________________ Freesurfer mailing list Freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu https://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/freesurfer
Hi Rahul,
Thanks for the input!
I'm afraid I don't see how the atlases agree with regard to the medial SFG, since only a tiny portion of the area of interest is in SFG according to the Destriuex annotation (SFG is the uppermost parcellation in the anterior half of the hemisphere in that image). So whether or not it extends into the SFG would change with just a slight change in smooting kernel.
Thank you!
LMR
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:12:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] Destrieux or Desikan/Ron Killiany From: rahul@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu To: larilin@gmail.com CC: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
Hi Lars,
From looking at the images you sent, your area of interest is clearly in the anterior portion of the cingulate gyrus as well as in the medial portion of the superior frontal gyrus (as well as a small portion in the corpus callosum). I think both atlases agree on this quite consistently.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Rahul
-- Rahul S. Desikan rahul@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
Hi, I have an area of significance on the mesial surface of the hemisphere (please see attached tiffs). I would like to know if it is exclusively in the cingulate or in cingulate and SFG. The prolbem is that the two atlases don't agree. The upper more than half of this significant area is in SFG according to lh.aparc.annot and in cingulate gyrus and sulcus according to lh.aparc.a2005s.annot.
I know there have been some issues before with cingulate and SFG in the Destrieux atals ( http://www.mail-archive.com/freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/msg05399.html) but it's unlcear to me whether these have been resolved. As you can see from the tiffs, in lh.aparc.annot the significant area is inside the corpus callosum (a small part), caudal and rostral ant. cingulate, and SFG. In lh.aparc.a2005s.annot it is inside pericallosal sulcus, g. cingulate main part, s. cingulate main part, and only a very small part of it extends into SFG. These are substantially different interpretations. Is one atlas more accurate in this region?
Thank you!
-- yours, LMR _______________________________________________ Freesurfer mailing list Freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu https://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/freesurfer
freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
-
Bruce Fischl -
Christophe Destrieux -
Lars M. Rimol -
rahul＠nmr.mgh.harvard.edu