External Email - Use Caution
Dear experts in longitudinal neuroimaging
We carefully read the papers about possible biases introduced by treating timepoints images differently (Reuter and Fischl NI 2011, for example) to estimate unbiased anatomical and functional changes of brain development in healthy individuals. We took good note that treating each time point independently would remove asymmetry biases at the cost of reduced power.
In our project, we would like to analyze about 800 scans both 3DT1, diffusion (FA preprocessed with fsl TBSS) and functional task BOLD at 3 time points (14 years-old, 19 years-old and 23 years-old).
Each time point scans are preprocessed individually and normalized to a specific group-based template at the corresponding time point (not a within-subject midpoint symmetric space) and to the standard MNI space.
Our question: We'd like to use a home-made study-specific multimodal atlas to resample ROI BOLD mean contrasts and fractional anisotropy at each time point but this atlas is *based on the last time point only (23 years-old).* Does this situation fall into the 'asymmetry-induced bias in longitudinal processing' ?
Our feeling is most probably yes but given the sample size this is likely to be marginal compared to the effect size and results would still be interpretable... ?
Many thanks for time, interest and insight,
Best wishes
Gabriel
yes, I think so too
On 9/19/2023 5:07 PM, gabriel robert wrote:
External Email - Use Caution
Dear experts in longitudinal neuroimaging
We carefully read the papers about possible biases introduced by treating timepoints images differently (Reuter and Fischl NI 2011, for example) to estimate unbiased anatomical and functional changes of brain development in healthy individuals. We took good note that treating each time point independently would remove asymmetry biases at the cost of reduced power.
In our project, we would like to analyze about 800 scans both 3DT1, diffusion (FA preprocessed with fsl TBSS) and functional task BOLD at 3 time points (14 years-old, 19 years-old and 23 years-old).
Each time point scans are preprocessed individually and normalized to a specific group-based template at the corresponding time point (not a within-subject midpoint symmetric space) and to the standard MNI space.
Our question: We'd like to use a home-made study-specific multimodal atlas to resample ROI BOLD mean contrasts and fractional anisotropy at each time point but this atlas is *based on the last time point only (23 years-old).* Does this situation fall into the 'asymmetry-induced bias in longitudinal processing' ?
Our feeling is most probably yes but given the sample size this is likely to be marginal compared to the effect size and results would still be interpretable... ?
Many thanks for time, interest and insight,
Best wishes
Gabriel
Freesurfer mailing list Freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu https://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/freesurfer
External Email - Use Caution
Dear Prof Greve,
Many thanks for your reply, Could you please confirm also the second part of the sentence ? " [...] given the sample size this is likely to be marginal compared to the effect size and results would still be interpretable... " Sorry but experts are th only way to get a feeling about those analyses without ground truth.. Best wishes
Gabriel Robert, MD, PhD, HDR PU-PH, Pôle Hospitalo-Universitaire de Psychiatrie Adulte (PHUPA) Psychiatrie de la personne âgée Centre Hospitalier Guillaume Régnier, Rennes, France U1228, UMR 60274 IRISA, Campus Beaulieu, Rennes, France Google Scholar https://secure-web.cisco.com/1bZJ2LS7q0EnKOd5Y6TGPIX0TLmTTTO9Cw8-2vT0thu6q5stKLPdklzjO3lZs5pp7E4AyZmO_OpPLQBtzobeDjcuyACNMhqYaBTIHgVW7T5RiRF80r7hbp_WOqSw3hUOgiADSZxQaKX4QN9FXCR4VZbmgladp-kmZIwY24gVmYFYGnN3p6zyQgx6XoVycyZxTui6Z9flF_TRq1PDcAUqdWlMEkVtTR6bo7HtaD-R4a5jef4zkwX04rlWdcYqqe-UFUcc--3-JKf1odAUYa_TtEe3hapo65SxJjGbRVnvUENEOhtgrbNknrOn4Al6-94CDO9ELn-zByz6J6UFbG-aw7w/https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.fr%2Fcitations%3Fuser%3DYKM-owQAAAAJ%26hl%3Dfr Journées de Psychiatrie de la Personne âgée https://secure-web.cisco.com/1kQxaeFEDTXddoUz9wy2tdevxSiRc61QALHpBrStXNp6bOnR-YlgC5i1Mu9tVdA9UxLL5Bu5Sy9c0jPQIKrcWu-kQAtHM23NeDrWuWrp-FMWc41FcRjZ2ok2NoVwbRyfmzHoxB-V_OJZQEl3Rrspn4xDUsBU9mcaGdzDqFTGMp4tk2j7fm_LS4e-GjzMKtY_Gwp0kFJxoQXl06ogLv5mdZMY05PJS85wvJX6K8bpshKeXV0QEoWVHnJ3ixSt_Qjq4pPFX-I2m0LT9sUs4FVUsU9CpnzIq-3lZr1KHLgRkhVcjUmEf9a7cuKNEDS4NjhHV/https%3A%2F%2Fcongresfrancaispsychiatrie.org%2Finscription-4eme-journee-de-psychiatrie-de-la-personne-agee-jppa%2F Société de Psychogériatrie et de Psychiatrie de la Personne Âgée (SF3PA) https://secure-web.cisco.com/1B27Etws1yYrmcxxKIyu1GVYH5giQgbkKzUmwAHFcRqFUFIS1ymoeKNs-72SXmHBQw9OaQK0QzWxZEDIyZvYk1jbl3oaL7nzVNQb_imrpehGUY3xkeaMoap2_MH2bQoIotTCclL5DVPo-zF1-nnNP_5bD-cYxKY2YxdGA1Z1OZ_4B08pi6grGcg_E0s26Y_eDBUwnojrIn9nu-RzcjjBvZO3Rn1Td0cVe_jY7DHLYZ5n2I78oIIs7NuUiVZsQraycH23BQPS2WJVb5QQgeP8excEOoKrj_l-p_ZbYmtJJiVWARkKcSPrNREFuv8nCq96U/https%3A%2F%2Fsf3pa.com%2F Institut de Neuroscience Clinique de Rennes https://secure-web.cisco.com/15_wCly8ngjWiGbLJbYb3ZZ1muKGQVh2ofwvy-s29znLhdr5QV3kKOkgBAWqnpkEqMRIpQcSzOs4vzyKIncUFCVKsQt4XsP4m-WBs35MjTi12_RPEuKc2-WYRUK1-PtQXdrFJteVfCaBYUUsMAPxqDqi7Jmli2b1tbAxYqJBvuJlFolw3kFZxxXIP8_GTj8XOR5ynN5GzwNlyKzFJLcoU7lblhsaDOOoBj_YfbM8F0VC40wxQCLEfrdVqx9BpftyROWkX6CYKirDa6Dw-6Az72NRDdhiCITOLe5e9iifHvW4yCclcMX5wy5L9VA3KKRR9/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.incr.fr%2F
Le lun. 16 oct. 2023 à 04:55, Douglas N. Greve dgreve@mgh.harvard.edu a écrit :
yes, I think so too
On 9/19/2023 5:07 PM, gabriel robert wrote:
External Email - Use CautionDear experts in longitudinal neuroimaging
We carefully read the papers about possible biases introduced by treating timepoints images differently (Reuter and Fischl NI 2011, for example) to estimate unbiased anatomical and functional changes of brain development in healthy individuals. We took good note that treating each time point independently would remove asymmetry biases at the cost of reduced power.
In our project, we would like to analyze about 800 scans both 3DT1, diffusion (FA preprocessed with fsl TBSS) and functional task BOLD at 3 time points (14 years-old, 19 years-old and 23 years-old).
Each time point scans are preprocessed individually and normalized to a specific group-based template at the corresponding time point (not a within-subject midpoint symmetric space) and to the standard MNI space.
Our question: We'd like to use a home-made study-specific multimodal atlas to resample ROI BOLD mean contrasts and fractional anisotropy at each time point but this atlas is *based on the last time point only (23 years-old).* Does this situation fall into the 'asymmetry-induced bias in longitudinal processing' ?
Our feeling is most probably yes but given the sample size this is likely to be marginal compared to the effect size and results would still be interpretable... ?
Many thanks for time, interest and insight,
Best wishes
Gabriel
Freesurfer mailing listFreesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.eduhttps://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/freesurfer
Freesurfer mailing list Freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu https://secure-web.cisco.com/1XCQL2qmHES2c7hFG38YxlAojLMK_J7Ha89hu69Sy1dWjFW... The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the e-mail contains patient information, please contact the Mass General Brigham Compliance HelpLine at https://secure-web.cisco.com/1kM6a6DsO20OPnDgynhuhBaKeAvMbXqHyEnNy0jkYXD2JEx... < https://secure-web.cisco.com/1kM6a6DsO20OPnDgynhuhBaKeAvMbXqHyEnNy0jkYXD2JEx... .
External Email - Use Caution
Thanks for your email.
-----原始邮件----- 发件人:"gabriel robert" gabriel.hadrien.robert@gmail.com 发送时间:2023-10-16 15:06:38 (星期一) 收件人: "Freesurfer support list" freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu, "Vaidya, Nilakshi" nilakshi.vaidya@charite.de 抄送: 主题: Re: [Freesurfer] Longitudinal multimodal processing
External Email - Use Caution
Dear Prof Greve,
Many thanks for your reply, Could you please confirm also the second part of the sentence ? " [...] given the sample size this is likely to be marginal compared to the effect size and results would still be interpretable... " Sorry but experts are th only way to get a feeling about those analyses without ground truth.. Best wishes
Gabriel Robert, MD, PhD, HDR
PU-PH, Pôle Hospitalo-Universitaire de Psychiatrie Adulte (PHUPA)
Psychiatrie de la personne âgée Centre Hospitalier Guillaume Régnier, Rennes, France
U1228, UMR 60274 IRISA, Campus Beaulieu, Rennes, France
Google Scholar Journées de Psychiatrie de la Personne âgée
Société de Psychogériatrie et de Psychiatrie de la Personne Âgée (SF3PA) Institut de Neuroscience Clinique de Rennes
Le lun. 16 oct. 2023 à 04:55, Douglas N. Greve dgreve@mgh.harvard.edu a écrit :
yes, I think so too
On 9/19/2023 5:07 PM, gabriel robert wrote:
External Email - Use Caution
Dear experts in longitudinal neuroimaging
We carefully read the papers about possible biases introduced by treating timepoints images differently (Reuter and Fischl NI 2011, for example) to estimate unbiased anatomical and functional changes of brain development in healthy individuals. We took good note that treating each time point independently would remove asymmetry biases at the cost of reduced power.
In our project, we would like to analyze about 800 scans both 3DT1, diffusion (FA preprocessed with fsl TBSS) and functional task BOLD at 3 time points (14 years-old, 19 years-old and 23 years-old).
Each time point scans are preprocessed individually and normalized to a specific group-based template at the corresponding time point (not a within-subject midpoint symmetric space) and to the standard MNI space.
Our question: We'd like to use a home-made study-specific multimodal atlas to resample ROI BOLD mean contrasts and fractional anisotropy at each time point but this atlas is based on the last time point only (23 years-old). Does this situation fall into the 'asymmetry-induced bias in longitudinal processing' ?
Our feeling is most probably yes but given the sample size this is likely to be marginal compared to the effect size and results would still be interpretable... ?
Many thanks for time, interest and insight,
Best wishes
Gabriel
_______________________________________________ Freesurfer mailing list Freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.eduMailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "secure-web.cisco.com" claiming to be https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ZSBu2q8mC3t-CbHxSUhWOc8lHum6yd3q5sXayV68VfGY4R...
_______________________________________________ Freesurfer mailing list Freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "secure-web.cisco.com" claiming to be https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ZSBu2q8mC3t-CbHxSUhWOc8lHum6yd3q5sXayV68VfGY4R... The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the e-mail contains patient information, please contact the Mass General Brigham Compliance HelpLine at MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "secure-web.cisco.com" claiming to be https://secure-web.cisco.com/1vbgodnTacGuDwFcU78lQlJg06zbwvHPtYmyoCdjP1cQ22W... <MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "secure-web.cisco.com" claiming to be https://secure-web.cisco.com/1vbgodnTacGuDwFcU78lQlJg06zbwvHPtYmyoCdjP1cQ22W... .
Lili Jiang Associate Research Professor Institute of Psychology
External Email - Use Caution
Dear Prof Greeve,
Gentle reminder for this question, Many thanks Best wishes Gabriel
Le lun. 16 oct. 2023 à 09:06, gabriel robert < gabriel.hadrien.robert@gmail.com> a écrit :
Dear Prof Greve,
Many thanks for your reply, Could you please confirm also the second part of the sentence ? " [...] given the sample size this is likely to be marginal compared to the effect size and results would still be interpretable... " Sorry but experts are th only way to get a feeling about those analyses without ground truth.. Best wishes
Gabriel Robert, MD, PhD, HDR PU-PH, Pôle Hospitalo-Universitaire de Psychiatrie Adulte (PHUPA) Psychiatrie de la personne âgée Centre Hospitalier Guillaume Régnier, Rennes, France U1228, UMR 60274 IRISA, Campus Beaulieu, Rennes, France Google Scholar https://secure-web.cisco.com/1Rt5Z0rgc-Ek7_nUspuFTLA6AdeaggWV9PXaRvpC_L8V0m6UT-m4NTnM1MXD80a_29z6OXLxWN2woq9ra_-BAl3G9g-yMVbELfVnvUaJQyfTX8QFgVtZnder508xMoSJ5j-lemZGE-e_KFD0nnuK8_kvwh9SUO_wkTAysMVb-1ZSTHqgi5157my45w40xUoWG9Uyp7gU6urZQOyfSKJJfq3BS8j-zP8Kx9D6foK1hCMdmIJj1MQIuH-8sNSi3o2Qy5G0QW7D6kjMFcCp1aanqkOPpDOun3xce-1BTv-BBtq8yBG7a-bng3ZZJhmlKr87EgQM4sCS1_RZfeDWFGEcdlg/https%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.fr%2Fcitations%3Fuser%3DYKM-owQAAAAJ%26hl%3Dfr Journées de Psychiatrie de la Personne âgée https://secure-web.cisco.com/136P6_NEbQGXL0v4UJ6br4Xtlmg1Jg2Ulquqe8XeW6nN0f22ZEo1L6RjxuOxRObPSvoGX37MrH30bWJtizO9ljcUpstDiXXCFxOZ7iuFurMm1Yzurpw_MnHW9Sn1wCbE2FNvIPb5Q9fRGqGm3sk1QssMfeJ2baSf8zlemh7pUCnDWEMM3Vr9RtIbC8zHb106kD7T0_RoYCJLPL6TzfMFv3fZtAJUGWn9TJ4OGq-m0Sv5Hfv7VqP33vuus-vn95a_ANHfbEhGshRJH4ntrXpUKrKyGJPHBXEvkq9FTgTtB-WyOgLS2bkCy1fE3W4hdBlZT/https%3A%2F%2Fcongresfrancaispsychiatrie.org%2Finscription-4eme-journee-de-psychiatrie-de-la-personne-agee-jppa%2F Société de Psychogériatrie et de Psychiatrie de la Personne Âgée (SF3PA) https://secure-web.cisco.com/1fADdG7jhtAXMJpy8JU7YTirOUZQb-xy_H5DMX3yePJ4xse1KqAj_xbLVyklCH4OfXr0onnozRkFNJW2jgTBJRC8ZXY25RhxZhU_brqG4UpDioRntS-BSE8qze5S0kFnuXOgKNp-E64J3MzdWehuC1uVWfFlzBqrqiufnF5AJduEu_6FCgJRLY9_w7WwbKHaI0YtBPI-g0SoBKUjv6uLQ5ui_N-gWCNANSMYKNNv7LYp0pjiqpnwdCNw3yCxCNl2P_ooWRczQa3CXrEBGKJV6QA96Jre6zJTWMELHjvmks27rs2Nd1b3ecsQA-3iFqnBF/https%3A%2F%2Fsf3pa.com%2F Institut de Neuroscience Clinique de Rennes https://secure-web.cisco.com/1J4FcdIJcMGtNG86PK8MjBhV7xmVSHdJnXGRfFTwBuciP_2ZglRcgAcaa25Igg9DnIaUM2jkxRhUdQF3EAIEStibEfyXbzeewUs1DS4lu488hV-O3eC37sJsToqFz06Vfe4DtSDgLb_ONhVIreZeutlRuOOmKhfU4xX_aEnNJnf_xB4HTGg-IgtFTFLq4VVu1p1sfTeZvR19-1MoswP2VEAMCf2RxLQq8A34OcHBM1soPCWhhf5jD6Awk7uFFI5CXSNdu3urjuWsAeo4oiMNtrJBt4RU4ByiI6fASKW7j1dOawtHv0iygtf-8FCKi428N/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.incr.fr%2F
Le lun. 16 oct. 2023 à 04:55, Douglas N. Greve dgreve@mgh.harvard.edu a écrit :
yes, I think so too
On 9/19/2023 5:07 PM, gabriel robert wrote:
External Email - Use CautionDear experts in longitudinal neuroimaging
We carefully read the papers about possible biases introduced by treating timepoints images differently (Reuter and Fischl NI 2011, for example) to estimate unbiased anatomical and functional changes of brain development in healthy individuals. We took good note that treating each time point independently would remove asymmetry biases at the cost of reduced power.
In our project, we would like to analyze about 800 scans both 3DT1, diffusion (FA preprocessed with fsl TBSS) and functional task BOLD at 3 time points (14 years-old, 19 years-old and 23 years-old).
Each time point scans are preprocessed individually and normalized to a specific group-based template at the corresponding time point (not a within-subject midpoint symmetric space) and to the standard MNI space.
Our question: We'd like to use a home-made study-specific multimodal atlas to resample ROI BOLD mean contrasts and fractional anisotropy at each time point but this atlas is *based on the last time point only (23 years-old).* Does this situation fall into the 'asymmetry-induced bias in longitudinal processing' ?
Our feeling is most probably yes but given the sample size this is likely to be marginal compared to the effect size and results would still be interpretable... ?
Many thanks for time, interest and insight,
Best wishes
Gabriel
Freesurfer mailing listFreesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.eduhttps://mail.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/mailman/listinfo/freesurfer
Freesurfer mailing list Freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu https://secure-web.cisco.com/1-vMvaQaH0yuqnk8fsx7hyYmvbfyS40PPkC7pk1tfiGCtbk... The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the e-mail contains patient information, please contact the Mass General Brigham Compliance HelpLine at https://secure-web.cisco.com/1PiSoPx_aDpjbRfntnMzAEIQwhATZWUu5EqEdrY1zvLHDMl... < https://secure-web.cisco.com/1PiSoPx_aDpjbRfntnMzAEIQwhATZWUu5EqEdrY1zvLHDMl... .
freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
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Douglas N. Greve -
gabriel robert -
姜黎黎