Hello,
Thank you Nick, Martin, and Doug for your previous feedback about ICV. I have a couple more questions that I am hoping you could clarify for me.
To verify my ICV value, some pages on the mailing list and wiki say to use this command: tkregister2 --s subject --fstal --surf
Other places say to use this: tkregister2 --xfm talairach.xfm --targ $FREESURFER_HOME/average/RB_all_withskull_2008-03-26.gca --mov ../nu_noneck.mgz --reg junk
However, on this wiki page (http://surfer.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/fswiki/eTIV), it says that post fs4.2.0, the template is this file: 711-2C_as_mni_average_305.4dfp.img. In the first tkregister2 command above, doesn't the --fstal flag use the talairach template? But shouldn't it be using the 711 template? And since I am using fs5.0.0, does that mean that I should not be using the RB template? Ultimately, what is the correct way to verify the ICV in fs 5.0.0?
Thank you very much, Jeff Sadino
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Douglas N Greve greve@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu wrote:
It's hard to tell from the coronal, but it looks ok. The problem is more visible in the sagittal.
doug
Jeff Sadino wrote:
Hello Doug,
I loaded up the tkregister2 program and I think I see some poor transformations. I've never really used it before though. Am I just looking at whether or not the green line lines up with the target image wm? Can you look at my pictures real quick? 040002_S04_test is from fs4 that is having problems. 040002_S04 is from fs3 and has a good icv value. Some of the blank spots are from my graphics drivers and unrelated to fs. tkregister2 also said the determinant of 040002_S04_test was 1.49544.
Martin,
Thank you for the idea. I did this, and got a much better icv. On fs3, where the icv was good, the number was 1,767,481. On fs4, it was 1,302,696. Using your idea on fs4, it was 1,819,485.
Thank you so much to everyone for your help! Jeff
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Martin Kavec <martin.kavec@gmail.com mailto:martin.kavec@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Jeff,
I see this relatively often. Eventhough the talairach registration is fine, the ICV is underestimated. In this case I take old ICV, which helps.
mri_segstats --subject $MYSUBJECT --old-etiv-only
This is in 99% of these cases a cure. This is not just a blind attempt. In these cases I then compare each ICV normalized aseg volume against an age matched group and only if the old-etiv-only ICV gives better estimates I use it.
Cheers,
Martin
On Thursday 25 February 2010 23:05:10 Jeff Sadino wrote: > Thanks Doug. That is very good news to hear! > > Maybe I spoke too soon about fixing the problem. I looked at 4 more > subjects, and even though the icv value is unique, its magnitude seems > wrong. Often times, it is smaller than the BrainSegVol, which doesn't make > much sense and it is also low overall. > > > # subjectname 090167_F01 > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskNVox, Number of Brain Mask Voxels, 1639959, > unitless > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskVol, Brain Mask Volume, 1639959.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSegNotVent, BrainSegVolNotVent, Brain Segmentation Volume > Without Ventricles, 1289194.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegNVox, Number of Brain Segmentation Voxels, > 1299686, unitless > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegVol, Brain Segmentation Volume, 1299686.000000, > mm^3 > # Measure IntraCranialVol, ICV, Intracranial Volume, 1105595.114652, mm^3 > > # subjectname 090182_S01 > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskNVox, Number of Brain Mask Voxels, 1599981, > unitless > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskVol, Brain Mask Volume, 1599981.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSegNotVent, BrainSegVolNotVent, Brain Segmentation Volume > Without Ventricles, 1199694.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegNVox, Number of Brain Segmentation Voxels, > 1205382, unitless > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegVol, Brain Segmentation Volume, 1205382.000000, > mm^3 > # Measure IntraCranialVol, ICV, Intracranial Volume, 1114008.197334, mm^3 > > # subjectname 090187_F01 > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskNVox, Number of Brain Mask Voxels, 1826694, > unitless > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskVol, Brain Mask Volume, 1826694.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSegNotVent, BrainSegVolNotVent, Brain Segmentation Volume > Without Ventricles, 1381871.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegNVox, Number of Brain Segmentation Voxels, > 1388801, unitless > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegVol, Brain Segmentation Volume, 1388801.000000, > mm^3 > # Measure IntraCranialVol, ICV, Intracranial Volume, 1307759.303915, mm^3 > > # subjectname 100014_F01 > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskNVox, Number of Brain Mask Voxels, 1948121, > unitless > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskVol, Brain Mask Volume, 1948121.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSegNotVent, BrainSegVolNotVent, Brain Segmentation Volume > Without Ventricles, 1467582.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegNVox, Number of Brain Segmentation Voxels, > 1488088, unitless > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegVol, Brain Segmentation Volume, 1488088.000000, > mm^3 > # Measure IntraCranialVol, ICV, Intracranial Volume, 1637915.031593, mm^3 > > # subjectname 040002_S04_test > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskNVox, Number of Brain Mask Voxels, 1774481, > unitless > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskVol, Brain Mask Volume, 1774481.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSegNotVent, BrainSegVolNotVent, Brain Segmentation Volume > Without Ventricles, 1288022.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegNVox, Number of Brain Segmentation Voxels, > 1312132, unitless > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegVol, Brain Segmentation Volume, 1312132.000000, > mm^3 > # Measure IntraCranialVol, ICV, Intracranial Volume, 1302696.178406, mm^3 > > I had also done 040002_S04 in fs 3.0.5, and this is the result: > # subjectname 040002_S04 > # BrainMaskFile mri/brainmask.mgz > # BrainMaskFileTimeStamp 2008/29/08 15:44:46 > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskNVox, Number of Brain Mask Voxels, 1753272, > unitless > # Measure BrainMask, BrainMaskVol, Brain Mask Volume, 1753272.000000, mm^3 > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegNVox, Number of Brain Segmentation Voxels, > 1310474, unitless > # Measure BrainSeg, BrainSegVol, Brain Segmentation Volume, 1310474.000000, > mm^3 > # Measure IntraCranialVol, ICV, Intracranial Volume, 1767481.547316, mm^3 > > All of the values are similar except the icv. Do you guys have any ideas > where I can look for the answer? > > Thank you very much, > Jeff >
-- Douglas N. Greve, Ph.D. MGH-NMR Center greve@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Phone Number: 617-724-2358 Fax: 617-726-7422
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