Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Hello Bruce,
Thanks for the response. I previously mentioned the parameters in the earlier discussion for the same topic and you have suggested to decrease the TE and increase the voxelsize to 1.2mm for better SNR. For the recollection I am again mentioning the complete parameters here-
The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degrees, voxel size 1x1x1, receiving coil is the 12 channel
head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil and GRAPPA of 2. We are using Freesurfer version 5.3.
I am including all the recon result files for one case for your review.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Ramtilak Gattu <tilak@neurologicstudies.com
wrote:
Hello Bruce,
Attached are the files for two subjects with brain.mgz and lh.white.
The values of WM in those regions in brain.mgz are above 90.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
Hello Bruce,
Thanks a lot for your earlier expert option suggestion in improving the segmentation during the recon process. I am attaching a snap shot where yellow is with expert options and red is with default options. My concern is where I have indicated with blue arrows . Could you please suggest why is it still failing to pick up those areas. Is it because of
a) misregistration with the atlas (i) if so where can I find the results after the non linear registration and (ii) would it be possible to improve with any more expert options during the registration and the segmentation subsequently.
b) or is it should be just changing the lower limit values for the WM and higher limit values for the GM. I am not sure which way to tune the values should I go low on WM values and go high on GM values. These are the actual values
mri_segment -wlo 87.7 -ghi 103.3 mris_make_surfaces -min_gray_at_white_border 79.4 -max_border_white 109.3 -min_border_white 90 -max_csf 68.7 -max_gray 98.7 -max_gray_at_csf_border 84.7 -min_gray_at_csf_border 58.1
For example Should these be changed to
mri_segment -wlo 80 -ghi 110
Thanks for your help in advance.
Regards Tilak
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:26 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you for recommending the expert options. I have run this on two subjects (rows) and you can see the post analysis results on the right (column) in the attached image . As you have mentioned it didnt work well in the cerebellum any other ways to improve in the inferior regions?
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 5:12 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you,
Attached is the scripts folder for one subject .
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 4:11 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Sorry, Actually just found out that the receiving coil is the 12 channel head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil. I am attaching a snapshot showing the sag orientation of the three cases that I previously mentioned and uploaded for your review.
From these figures do you really think there is not enough contrast, just wondering
- why it worked in the bottom image and it failed in the upper two
(T1_sag_comparison.jpg) 2) it failed in the left image and did good in the right image (T1_sag_comparison_2.jpg).
We have similar data in 25 of the subjects. Is there a way to salvage the existing data and improve our results we will certainly follow your input in changing the existing protocol and collect some data and run the analysis to see if it improves the results.
One more thought is if is there any other way around to increase the contrast by taking help from T2 image and run recon-all. Do you think it will help?
Thanks for you help .
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:22 AM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
what was the transmit coil? I think I would either reduce the voxel sizes a bit or not use grappa. Probably go to 1.2 mm or so, which would be a 70% increase in SNR. That won't help the transmit bias field though if you have one. The 8 channel can also sometimes be a problem. The 32 channel coils work much better
On Mon, 28 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
The scans are done on 3T Siemens TRIO and 8 coil head channel with a
GRAPPA of 2.
Here is the screen shot of protocol used.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 3:23 PM To: Bruce Fischl Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon
-all for better volume estmation
Hey Bruce,
I have uploaded the files in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
I have also included the 001.mgz in there.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:35 PM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon
-all for better volume estmation
can you send me the rawavg.mgz from the subjects's mri file instead of these dicoms (which I can't read) On Sat, 26 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I have uploaded the cases in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
xWlpwBQnNAhG8%3d&docid=0a72431d82b4d4b9b924cccbdfb7f34f8
The voxel dimensions are 1x1x1 mm.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:59 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Cc: tilakgattu@hotmail.com Subject: improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better
volume estmation
Hello all,
We have run recon -all on some healthy control subjects T1 images
but we found out that the gray-white segmentation on half our subjects is
bad and it leads to increased white matter volumes and decreased gray
matter volumes. I have included a snap shot showing the difference in
segmentation from bad to good for 3 cases
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
WPDE1klUw%3d&docid=0dd4546a8004f46578b7a2177b192806a
. The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle
=20 degrees. and use a snapshot one slice to show the good CNR. We are using
Freesurfer version 5.3.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak.
The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom
it is
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contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance
HelpLine at
http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to
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thanks, I had forgotten. Is this 1.5T? I'm a bit concerned about the lack of contrast in addition to the noise. I guess decreasing the TE will help this, but you might also try a larger flip. 30 frequently gives us better T1 CNR than 20 (although it's further from the Ernst angle, and hence noiser). Can you pilot a few scans and quantify CNR in various parts of the brain?
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hello Bruce, Thanks for the response. I previously mentioned the parameters in the earlier discussion for the same topic and you have suggested to decrease the TE and increase the voxelsize to 1.2mm for better SNR. For the recollection I am again mentioning the complete parameters here-
The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degrees, voxel size 1x1x1, receiving coil is the 12 chan nel
head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil and GRAPPA of 2. We are using Freesurfer version 5.3.
I am including all the recon result files for one case for your review.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/... %2fRsmwZmSlq5pNMZA5%2fXhu5hDy10Q%3d&docid=1bd7f60d2dc074a12ae531ebbdcb3829b
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hello Bruce, Attached are the files for two subjects with brain.mgz and lh.white. The values of WM in those regions in brain.mgz are above 90.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hello Bruce,
Thanks a lot for your earlier expert option suggestion in improving the segmentation during the recon process. I am attaching a snap shot where yellow is with expert options and red is with default options. My concern is where I have indicated with blue arrows . Could you please suggest why is it still failing to pick up those areas. Is it because ofa) misregistration with the atlas (i) if so where can I find the results after the non linear registration and (ii) would it be possible to improve with any more expert options during the registration and the segmentation subsequently.
b) or is it should be just changing the lower limit values for the WM and higher limit values for the GM. I am not sure which way to tune the values should I go low on WM values and go high on GM values. These are the actual values
mri_segment -wlo 87.7 -ghi 103.3 mris_make_surfaces -min_gray_at_white_border 79.4 -max_border_white 109.3 -min_border_white 90 -max_csf 68.7 -max_gray 98.7 -max_gray_at_csf_border 84.7 -min_gray_at_csf_border 58.1
For example Should these be changed to
mri_segment -wlo 80 -ghi 110
Thanks for your help in advance.
Regards Tilak
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:26 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you for recommending the expert options. I have run this on two subjects (rows) and you can see the post analysis results on the right (column) in the attached image . As you have mentioned it didnt work well in the cerebellum any other ways to improve in the inferior regions?
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 5:12 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you,
Attached is the scripts folder for one subject .
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 4:11 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Sorry, Actually just found out that the receiving coil is the 12 channel head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil. I am attaching a snapshot showing the sag orientation of the three cases that I previously mentioned and uploaded for your review.
From these figures do you really think there is not enough contrast, just wondering
- why it worked in the bottom image and it failed in the upper two (T1_sag_comparison.jpg)
- it failed in the left image and did good in the right image (T1_sag_comparison_2.jpg).
We have similar data in 25 of the subjects. Is there a way to salvage the existing data and improve our results we will certainly follow your input in changing the existing protocol and collect some data and run the analysis to see if it improves the results.
One more thought is if is there any other way around to increase the contrast by taking help from T2 image and run recon-all. Do you think it will help?
Thanks for you help .
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:22 AM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
what was the transmit coil? I think I would either reduce the voxel sizes a bit or not use grappa. Probably go to 1.2 mm or so, which would be a 70% increase in SNR. That won't help the transmit bias field though if you have one. The 8 channel can also sometimes be a problem. The 32 channel coils work much better
On Mon, 28 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
The scans are done on 3T Siemens TRIO and 8 coil head channel with a GRAPPA of 2.
Here is the screen shot of protocol used.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
CUofGHq7IAQY6k4uG50U0ic0zBkHE%3d&docid=034b186e0a218401590414fc271f3cf5f
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 3:23 PM To: Bruce Fischl Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Hey Bruce,
I have uploaded the files in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
i983YqZtMFGMns%2b5WB6dNeC3osudU%3d&docid=000b5dcba90f2419e9bdf4ce77dfd7a5e
I have also included the 001.mgz in there.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:35 PM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
can you send me the rawavg.mgz from the subjects's mri file instead of these dicoms (which I can't read) On Sat, 26 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I have uploaded the cases in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
3AechqG%2bjqb89ALB94
xWlpwBQnNAhG8%3d&docid=0a72431d82b4d4b9b924cccbdfb7f34f8
The voxel dimensions are 1x1x1 mm.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:59 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Cc: tilakgattu@hotmail.com Subject: improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Hello all,
We have run recon -all on some healthy control subjects T1 images but we found out that the gray-white
segmentation on half our subjects is
bad and it leads to increased white matter volumes and decreased gray matter volumes. I have included a
snap shot showing the difference in
segmentation from bad to good for 3 cases
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
hRJWPQ9q70vAXUGIJ9h5
WPDE1klUw%3d&docid=0dd4546a8004f46578b7a2177b192806a
. The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degrees. and use a snapshot one
slice to show the good CNR. We are using
Freesurfer version 5.3.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak.
The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the e-mail contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance HelpLine at http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to you in error but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender and properly dispose of the e-mail.
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Hey Bruce,
These scans are done on 3T Siemens Trio.
Will send you CNR for some of the cases . Are you looking for any specific structures in particular.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
Hello Bruce,
Thanks for the response. I previously mentioned the parameters in the earlier discussion for the same topic and you have suggested to decrease the TE and increase the voxelsize to 1.2mm for better SNR. For the recollection I am again mentioning the complete parameters here-
The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degrees, voxel size 1x1x1, receiving coil is the 12 channel
head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil and GRAPPA of 2. We are using Freesurfer version 5.3.
I am including all the recon result files for one case for your review.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
Hello Bruce,
Attached are the files for two subjects with brain.mgz and lh.white.
The values of WM in those regions in brain.mgz are above 90.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
Hello Bruce,
Thanks a lot for your earlier expert option suggestion in improving the segmentation during the recon process. I am attaching a snap shot where yellow is with expert options and red is with default options. My concern is where I have indicated with blue arrows . Could you please suggest why is it still failing to pick up those areas. Is it because of
a) misregistration with the atlas (i) if so where can I find the results after the non linear registration and (ii) would it be possible to improve with any more expert options during the registration and the segmentation subsequently.
b) or is it should be just changing the lower limit values for the WM and higher limit values for the GM. I am not sure which way to tune the values should I go low on WM values and go high on GM values. These are the actual values
mri_segment -wlo 87.7 -ghi 103.3 mris_make_surfaces -min_gray_at_white_border 79.4 -max_border_white 109.3 -min_border_white 90 -max_csf 68.7 -max_gray 98.7 -max_gray_at_csf_border 84.7 -min_gray_at_csf_border 58.1
For example Should these be changed to
mri_segment -wlo 80 -ghi 110
Thanks for your help in advance.
Regards Tilak
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:26 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you for recommending the expert options. I have run this on two subjects (rows) and you can see the post analysis results on the right (column) in the attached image . As you have mentioned it didnt work well in the cerebellum any other ways to improve in the inferior regions?
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 5:12 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you,
Attached is the scripts folder for one subject .
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 4:11 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Sorry, Actually just found out that the receiving coil is the 12 channel head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil. I am attaching a snapshot showing the sag orientation of the three cases that I previously mentioned and uploaded for your review.
From these figures do you really think there is not enough contrast, just wondering
- why it worked in the bottom image and it failed in the upper two
(T1_sag_comparison.jpg) 2) it failed in the left image and did good in the right image (T1_sag_comparison_2.jpg).
We have similar data in 25 of the subjects. Is there a way to salvage the existing data and improve our results we will certainly follow your input in changing the existing protocol and collect some data and run the analysis to see if it improves the results.
One more thought is if is there any other way around to increase the contrast by taking help from T2 image and run recon-all. Do you think it will help?
Thanks for you help .
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:22 AM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
what was the transmit coil? I think I would either reduce the voxel sizes a bit or not use grappa. Probably go to 1.2 mm or so, which would be a 70% increase in SNR. That won't help the transmit bias field though if you have one. The 8 channel can also sometimes be a problem. The 32 channel coils work much better
On Mon, 28 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
The scans are done on 3T Siemens TRIO and 8 coil head channel with a
GRAPPA of 2.
Here is the screen shot of protocol used.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 3:23 PM To: Bruce Fischl Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon
-all for better volume estmation
Hey Bruce,
I have uploaded the files in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
I have also included the 001.mgz in there.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:35 PM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon
-all for better volume estmation
can you send me the rawavg.mgz from the subjects's mri file instead of these dicoms (which I can't read) On Sat, 26 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I have uploaded the cases in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
xWlpwBQnNAhG8%3d&docid=0a72431d82b4d4b9b924cccbdfb7f34f8
The voxel dimensions are 1x1x1 mm.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:59 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Cc: tilakgattu@hotmail.com Subject: improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better
volume estmation
Hello all,
We have run recon -all on some healthy control subjects T1 images
but we found out that the gray-white segmentation on half our subjects is
bad and it leads to increased white matter volumes and decreased
gray matter volumes. I have included a snap shot showing the difference in
segmentation from bad to good for 3 cases
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
WPDE1klUw%3d&docid=0dd4546a8004f46578b7a2177b192806a
. The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip
angle =20 degrees. and use a snapshot one slice to show the good CNR. We are using
Freesurfer version 5.3.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak.
The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to
whom it is
addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and
the e-mail
contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance
HelpLine at
http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to
you in error
but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender
and properly
dispose of the e-mail.
nope, but in occipital and perirolandic cortex I couldn't see the gray/white boundary in your data, so make sure your scans have contrast there
On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce, These scans are done on 3T Siemens Trio.
Will send you CNR for some of the cases . Are you looking for any specific structures in particular.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hello Bruce, Thanks for the response. I previously mentioned the parameters in the earlier discussion for the same topic and you have suggested to decrease the TE and increase the voxelsize to 1.2mm for better SNR. For the recollection I am again mentioning the complete parameters here-
The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degrees, voxel size 1x1x1, receiving coil is the 12 chan nel
head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil and GRAPPA of 2. We are using Freesurfer version 5.3.
I am including all the recon result files for one case for your review.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/... %2fRsmwZmSlq5pNMZA5%2fXhu5hDy10Q%3d&docid=1bd7f60d2dc074a12ae531ebbdcb3829b
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hello Bruce, Attached are the files for two subjects with brain.mgz and lh.white. The values of WM in those regions in brain.mgz are above 90.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hello Bruce,
Thanks a lot for your earlier expert option suggestion in improving the segmentation during the recon process. I am attaching a snap shot where yellow is with expert options and red is with default options. My concern is where I have indicated with blue arrows . Could you please suggest why is it still failing to pick up those areas. Is it because ofa) misregistration with the atlas (i) if so where can I find the results after the non linear registration and (ii) would it be possible to improve with any more expert options during the registration and the segmentation subsequently.
b) or is it should be just changing the lower limit values for the WM and higher limit values for the GM. I am not sure which way to tune the values should I go low on WM values and go high on GM values. These are the actual values
mri_segment -wlo 87.7 -ghi 103.3 mris_make_surfaces -min_gray_at_white_border 79.4 -max_border_white 109.3 -min_border_white 90 -max_csf 68.7 -max_gray 98.7 -max_gray_at_csf_border 84.7 -min_gray_at_csf_border 58.1
For example Should these be changed to
mri_segment -wlo 80 -ghi 110
Thanks for your help in advance.
Regards Tilak
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:26 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you for recommending the expert options. I have run this on two subjects (rows) and you can see the post analysis results on the right (column) in the attached image . As you have mentioned it didnt work well in the cerebellum any other ways to improve in the inferior regions?
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 5:12 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you,
Attached is the scripts folder for one subject .
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 4:11 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Sorry, Actually just found out that the receiving coil is the 12 channel head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil. I am attaching a snapshot showing the sag orientation of the three cases that I previously mentioned and uploaded for your review.
From these figures do you really think there is not enough contrast, just wondering
- why it worked in the bottom image and it failed in the upper two (T1_sag_comparison.jpg)
- it failed in the left image and did good in the right image (T1_sag_comparison_2.jpg).
We have similar data in 25 of the subjects. Is there a way to salvage the existing data and improve our results we will certainly follow your input in changing the existing protocol and collect some data and run the analysis to see if it improves the results.
One more thought is if is there any other way around to increase the contrast by taking help from T2 image and run recon-all. Do you think it will help?
Thanks for you help .
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:22 AM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
what was the transmit coil? I think I would either reduce the voxel sizes a bit or not use grappa. Probably go to 1.2 mm or so, which would be a 70% increase in SNR. That won't help the transmit bias field though if you have one. The 8 channel can also sometimes be a problem. The 32 channel coils work much better
On Mon, 28 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
The scans are done on 3T Siemens TRIO and 8 coil head channel with a GRAPPA of 2.
Here is the screen shot of protocol used.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
CUofGHq7IAQY6k4uG50U0ic0zBkHE%3d&docid=034b186e0a218401590414fc271f3cf5f
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 3:23 PM To: Bruce Fischl Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Hey Bruce,
I have uploaded the files in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
i983YqZtMFGMns%2b5WB6dNeC3osudU%3d&docid=000b5dcba90f2419e9bdf4ce77dfd7a5e
I have also included the 001.mgz in there.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:35 PM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
can you send me the rawavg.mgz from the subjects's mri file instead of these dicoms (which I can't read) On Sat, 26 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I have uploaded the cases in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
3AechqG%2bjqb89ALB94
xWlpwBQnNAhG8%3d&docid=0a72431d82b4d4b9b924cccbdfb7f34f8
The voxel dimensions are 1x1x1 mm.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:59 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Cc: tilakgattu@hotmail.com Subject: improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Hello all,
We have run recon -all on some healthy control subjects T1 images but we found out that the
gray-white segmentation on half our subjects is
bad and it leads to increased white matter volumes and decreased gray matter volumes. I have included
a snap shot showing the difference in
segmentation from bad to good for 3 cases
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
hRJWPQ9q70vAXUGIJ9h5
WPDE1klUw%3d&docid=0dd4546a8004f46578b7a2177b192806a
. The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degrees. and use a snapshot
one slice to show the good CNR. We are using
Freesurfer version 5.3.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak.
The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and the e-mail contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance HelpLine at http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to you in error but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender and properly dispose of the e-mail.
***NOTICE*** The documents accompanying this email transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual(s) or entity(ies) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this emailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at 248-277-3334 to arrange for return of the original documents to us. Thank you.
Hey Bruce,
Following up with the question can I find any documentation to improve the segmentation like what are the parameters that needs to be tweaked. Can we use any seed points to classify and improve the segmentation? How to decide the thresholds in choosing the parameters to improve the segmentation?
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
Hey Bruce,
These scans are done on 3T Siemens Trio.
Will send you CNR for some of the cases . Are you looking for any specific structures in particular.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
Hello Bruce,
Thanks for the response. I previously mentioned the parameters in the earlier discussion for the same topic and you have suggested to decrease the TE and increase the voxelsize to 1.2mm for better SNR. For the recollection I am again mentioning the complete parameters here-
The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degrees, voxel size 1x1x1, receiving coil is the 12 channel
head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil and GRAPPA of 2. We are using Freesurfer version 5.3.
I am including all the recon result files for one case for your review.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
Hello Bruce,
Attached are the files for two subjects with brain.mgz and lh.white.
The values of WM in those regions in brain.mgz are above 90.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Ramtilak Gattu < tilak@neurologicstudies.com> wrote:
Hello Bruce,
Thanks a lot for your earlier expert option suggestion in improving the segmentation during the recon process. I am attaching a snap shot where yellow is with expert options and red is with default options. My concern is where I have indicated with blue arrows . Could you please suggest why is it still failing to pick up those areas. Is it because of
a) misregistration with the atlas (i) if so where can I find the results after the non linear registration and (ii) would it be possible to improve with any more expert options during the registration and the segmentation subsequently.
b) or is it should be just changing the lower limit values for the WM and higher limit values for the GM. I am not sure which way to tune the values should I go low on WM values and go high on GM values. These are the actual values
mri_segment -wlo 87.7 -ghi 103.3 mris_make_surfaces -min_gray_at_white_border 79.4 -max_border_white 109.3 -min_border_white 90 -max_csf 68.7 -max_gray 98.7 -max_gray_at_csf_border 84.7 -min_gray_at_csf_border 58.1
For example Should these be changed to
mri_segment -wlo 80 -ghi 110
Thanks for your help in advance.
Regards Tilak
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:26 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you for recommending the expert options. I have run this on two subjects (rows) and you can see the post analysis results on the right (column) in the attached image . As you have mentioned it didnt work well in the cerebellum any other ways to improve in the inferior regions?
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 5:12 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you,
Attached is the scripts folder for one subject .
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 4:11 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Sorry, Actually just found out that the receiving coil is the 12 channel head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil. I am attaching a snapshot showing the sag orientation of the three cases that I previously mentioned and uploaded for your review.
From these figures do you really think there is not enough contrast, just wondering
- why it worked in the bottom image and it failed in the upper two
(T1_sag_comparison.jpg) 2) it failed in the left image and did good in the right image (T1_sag_comparison_2.jpg).
We have similar data in 25 of the subjects. Is there a way to salvage the existing data and improve our results we will certainly follow your input in changing the existing protocol and collect some data and run the analysis to see if it improves the results.
One more thought is if is there any other way around to increase the contrast by taking help from T2 image and run recon-all. Do you think it will help?
Thanks for you help .
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:22 AM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
what was the transmit coil? I think I would either reduce the voxel sizes a bit or not use grappa. Probably go to 1.2 mm or so, which would be a 70% increase in SNR. That won't help the transmit bias field though if you have one. The 8 channel can also sometimes be a problem. The 32 channel coils work much better
On Mon, 28 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
The scans are done on 3T Siemens TRIO and 8 coil head channel with a
GRAPPA of 2.
Here is the screen shot of protocol used.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 3:23 PM To: Bruce Fischl Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon
-all for better volume estmation
Hey Bruce,
I have uploaded the files in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
I have also included the 001.mgz in there.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:35 PM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon
-all for better volume estmation
can you send me the rawavg.mgz from the subjects's mri file instead
of
these dicoms (which I can't read) On Sat, 26 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
> > Hey Bruce, > > > Thanks for the quick reply. > > > I have uploaded the cases in > > >
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
> xWlpwBQnNAhG8%3d&docid=0a72431d82b4d4b9b924cccbdfb7f34f8 > > > The voxel dimensions are 1x1x1 mm. > > > > Thanks > > > Regards > > Tilak > > > >
> From: Ramtilak Gattu > Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:59 PM > To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu > Cc: tilakgattu@hotmail.com > Subject: improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better
volume estmation
> > Hello all, > > > We have run recon -all on some healthy control subjects T1 images
but we found out that the gray-white segmentation on half our subjects is
> bad and it leads to increased white matter volumes and decreased
gray matter volumes. I have included a snap shot showing the difference in
> segmentation from bad to good for 3 cases > >
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/...
> WPDE1klUw%3d&docid=0dd4546a8004f46578b7a2177b192806a > > . The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip
angle =20 degrees. and use a snapshot one slice to show the good CNR. We are using
> Freesurfer version 5.3. > > > Thanks > > > Regards > > Tilak. > > >
The information in this e-mail is intended only for the person to
whom it is
addressed. If you believe this e-mail was sent to you in error and
the e-mail
contains patient information, please contact the Partners Compliance
HelpLine at
http://www.partners.org/complianceline . If the e-mail was sent to
you in error
but does not contain patient information, please contact the sender
and properly
dispose of the e-mail.
Hi Tilak
I think you need to improve your data if that is an option. I couldn't see the gray/white boundary in either occipital or perirolandic cortex, so no parameters are going to help there
cheers Bruce On Mon, 25 Apr 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce, Following up with the question can I find any documentation to improve the segmentation like what are the parameters that needs to be tweaked. Can we use any seed points to classify and improve the segmentation? How to decide the thresholds in choosing the parameters to improve the segmentation?
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hey Bruce, These scans are done on 3T Siemens Trio.
Will send you CNR for some of the cases . Are you looking for any specific structures in particular.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hello Bruce, Thanks for the response. I previously mentioned the parameters in the earlier discussion for the same topic and you have suggested to decrease the TE and increase the voxelsize to 1.2mm for better SNR. For the recollection I am again mentioning the complete parameters here-
The parameter in the sequence are TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degr ees, voxel size 1x1x1, receiving coil is the 12 channel
head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil and GRAPPA of 2. We are using Freesurfer version 5.3.
I am including all the recon result files for one case for your review.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts/ 15/guestaccess.aspx?guestaccesstoken=etz0FRv0sU01dbi%2fRsmwZmSlq5pNMZA5%2fXh u5hDy10Q%3d&docid=1bd7f60d2dc074a12ae531ebbdcb3829b
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hello Bruce, Attached are the files for two subjects with brain.mgz and lh.white. The values of WM in those regions in brain.mgz are above 90.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
On Sun, Apr 24, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote:
On Sat, Apr 23, 2016 at 7:47 PM, Ramtilak Gattu tilak@neurologicstudies.com wrote: Hello Bruce,
Thanks a lot for your earlier expert option suggestion in improving the segmentation during the recon process. I am attaching a snap shot where yellow is with expert options and red is with default options. My concern is where I have indicated with blue arrows . Could you please suggest why is it still failing to pick up those areas. Is it because ofa) misregistration with the atlas (i) if so where can I find the results after the non linear registration and (ii) would it be possible to improve with any more expert options during the registration and the segmentation subsequently.
b) or is it should be just changing the lower limit values for the WM and higher limit values for the GM. I am not sure which way to tune the values should I go low on WM values and go high on GM values. These are the actual values
mri_segment -wlo 87.7 -ghi 103.3 mris_make_surfaces -min_gray_at_white_border 79.4 -max_border_white 109.3 -min_border_white 90 -max_csf 68.7 -max_gray 98.7 -max_gray_at_csf_border 84.7 -min_gray_at_csf_border 58.1
For example Should these be changed to
mri_segment -wlo 80 -ghi 110
Thanks for your help in advance.
Regards Tilak
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:26 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you for recommending the expert options. I have run this on two subjects (rows) and you can see the post analysis results on the right (column) in the attached image . As you have mentioned it didnt work well in the cerebellum any other ways to improve in the inferior regions?
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 5:12 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Thank you,
Attached is the scripts folder for one subject .
Thanks
Regards Tilak ________________________________________ From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 4:11 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Sorry, Actually just found out that the receiving coil is the 12 channel head coil and the transmitting coil is the body coil. I am attaching a snapshot showing the sag orientation of the three cases that I previously mentioned and uploaded for your review.
From these figures do you really think there
is not enough contrast, just wondering
- why it worked in the bottom image and it
failed in the upper two (T1_sag_comparison.jpg) 2) it failed in the left image and did good in the right image (T1_sag_comparison_2.jpg).
We have similar data in 25 of the subjects. Is there a way to salvage the existing data and improve our results we will certainly follow your input in changing the existing protocol and collect some data and run the analysis to see if it improves the results.
One more thought is if is there any other way around to increase the contrast by taking help from T2 image and run recon-all. Do you think it will help?
Thanks for you help .
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl fischl@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 11:22 AM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
what was the transmit coil? I think I would either reduce the voxel sizes a bit or not use grappa. Probably go to 1.2 mm or so, which would be a 70% increase in SNR. That won't help the transmit bias field though if you have one. The 8 channel can also sometimes be a problem. The 32 channel coils work much better
On Mon, 28 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
The scans are done on 3T Siemens TRIO and 8
coil head channel with a GRAPPA of 2.
Here is the screen shot of protocol used.
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts
/15/guestaccess.aspx?guestaccesstoken=VJ0QiLxUz9fI6GCUofGHq7IAQY6k4uG50U0ic 0zBkHE%3d&docid=034b186e0a218401590414fc271f3cf5f
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2016 3:23 PM To: Bruce Fischl Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving
white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
Hey Bruce,
I have uploaded the files in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts
/15/guestaccess.aspx?guestaccesstoken=0MdoYLvWY2ZYOdi983YqZtMFGMns%2b5WB6dN eC3osudU%3d&docid=000b5dcba90f2419e9bdf4ce77dfd7a5e
I have also included the 001.mgz in there.
Thanks
Regards Tilak
From: Bruce Fischl
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:35 PM To: Ramtilak Gattu Subject: Re: [Freesurfer] improving
white/grey segmentation in recon -all for better volume estmation
can you send me the rawavg.mgz from the
subjects's mri file instead of
these dicoms (which I can't read) On Sat, 26 Mar 2016, Ramtilak Gattu wrote:
Hey Bruce,
Thanks for the quick reply.
I have uploaded the cases in
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts
/15/guestaccess.aspx?guestaccesstoken=%2bkyhy0gR4k7Q3AechqG%2bjqb89ALB94
xWlpwBQnNAhG8%3d&docid=0a72431d82b4d4b9b924cccbdfb7f34f8
The voxel dimensions are 1x1x1 mm.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak
From: Ramtilak Gattu Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 9:59 PM To: freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu Cc: tilakgattu@hotmail.com Subject: improving white/grey segmentation
in recon -all for better volume estmation
Hello all,
We have run recon -all on some healthy
control subjects T1 images but we found out that the gray-white segmentation on half our subjects is
bad and it leads to increased white matter
volumes and decreased gray matter volumes. I have included a snap shot showing the difference in
segmentation from bad to good for 3 cases
https://waynestateprod-my.sharepoint.com/personal/ao3080_wayne_edu/_layouts
/15/guestaccess.aspx?guestaccesstoken=ajPIRobFq548RyhRJWPQ9q70vAXUGIJ9h5
WPDE1klUw%3d&docid=0dd4546a8004f46578b7a2177b192806a
. The parameter in the sequence are
TE=4.92 ms, TR=19 ms, Flip angle =20 degrees. and use a snapshot one slice to show the good CNR. We are using
Freesurfer version 5.3.
Thanks
Regards
Tilak.
The information in this e-mail is intended
only for the person to whom it is
addressed. If you believe this e-mail was
sent to you in error and the e-mail
contains patient information, please contact
the Partners Compliance HelpLine at
the e-mail was sent to you in error
but does not contain patient information,
please contact the sender and properly
dispose of the e-mail.
***NOTICE*** The documents accompanying this email transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender, which is legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual(s) or entity(ies) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this emailed information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at 248-277-3334 to arrange for return of the original documents to us. Thank you.
freesurfer@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu
-
Bruce Fischl -
Ramtilak Gattu